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Islam.
Dec 8, 2017 5:23:40 GMT 10
Post by cster on Dec 8, 2017 5:23:40 GMT 10
I thought it was Nebuchadnezzar who emptied Jerusalem of its 10,000 Captains, artisans and craftsmens, all men of valour. None bar the poorest people of the land remained.
If the Talmud was written there, would that not be a significant tie to the place.
Jerusalem was on the Telly last night with protesters burning flags etc, the place looks like a war zone. No wonder this place is referred to as the place of sorrows. Now where that comes from I cant recall?
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Islam.
Dec 8, 2017 7:34:45 GMT 10
Post by tute on Dec 8, 2017 7:34:45 GMT 10
I think the city was pretty much abandoned during the Captivity. The Babylonians wrecked most of it during and after the Siege and then took most of the population away. I don't think there was much there when the Jews under Zerubbabel returned in 536 BC.
Jerusalem... Today..
Locating the US (and other) embassies in the western part of Jerusalem shouldn’t be a problem, because Palestinians had stated they only wanted the eastern part. ... Then with the next breath they say they want to obliterate Israel completely.... yeah ....WTF
And so its gone on for 70 odd years....
Now a major player (with nuts) puts his oar in.... and POTUS Trump, true to his word, shows initiative on behalf of Israel and settles the dispute by giving nothing more to the Palestinians, and at the same time lets them and the world know that Palestinians don’t have ultimate say over Israel’s diplomatic relationships with other countries.
IMHO I find nothing wrong with that outcome.... however Lady Macbeth on our behalf vows that Australia will not be moving its embassy from Tel Aviv... (as if she has that say!) But then lady Macbeth will say anything to get the position she requires in the UN
We shall see.... |
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Post by epictetus on Dec 8, 2017 12:59:52 GMT 10
I thought it was Nebuchadnezzar who emptied Jerusalem of its 10,000 Captains, artisans and craftsmens, all men of valour. None bar the poorest people of the land remained. If the Talmud was written there, would that not be a significant tie to the place. Jerusalem was on the Telly last night with protesters burning flags etc, the place looks like a war zone. No wonder this place is referred to as the place of sorrows. Now where that comes from I cant recall? My memory might be a bit mixed up, and I may be too reliant on Wikipedia, but yes, I believe it was Nebuchanezzar II who took the court and elite stratum of Jerusalem and most of the population of Judaea off to Babylon in 598 BC. There were two Talmuds, one from Jerusalem, 2nd to 4th centuries AD, and a later one from Babylonia, a province just south of Baghdad (3rd - 5th centuries). The Babylonian Talmud is more complete. In his first (and last) homily in the synagogue at Nazareth (Luke 4:19), Jesus quoted from Isaiah 61:2. He has sent me ... to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD [or the year of the Lord's favour]. Isaiah continues: and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn ... in Zion (61:3). Zion being Jerusalem, the implication is that Jerusalem has been sorrowing and that Jesus has come to the rescue. Indeed, some Christian commentators prefer "sorrow" to "mourn" and see Christ as "the Lord" and "Joy-bringer" invoked in Isaiah - the "Lord Jesus" (Christ: God's Anointed) as the "Man of Sorrows", transforming mourning by transforming the mourner. Isaiah 61 verses 2-3 are from "Third Isaiah" (Is. 55-66), a collection of oracles by unknown prophets in the years immediately after the return from Babylon, so their representation of Zion/Jerusalem as a place of sorrows would be about right. I don't know any other source for the representation of Jerusalem as a place of sorrows. Usually it's Babylon that's represented that way. Psalm 137: By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” |
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Islam.
Dec 8, 2017 13:09:48 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 8, 2017 13:09:48 GMT 10
Tute said: Locating the US (and other) embassies in the western part of Jerusalem shouldn’t be a problem, because Palestinians had stated they only wanted the eastern part.
...................................................................................................................................................................................
Good point, Tute.
It shoudn't be a problem for reasonable people who don't have a deep emotional investment in the matter, unlike some Jews and lots of Sunni Muslims. But the reasonable people aren't the key players in this issue. It's the deeply religious and ethnocentric ones who are.
Who would have thought when we were young that religious extremism would play such a role in world affairs in the 21st century?
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Post by forge on Dec 11, 2017 4:51:22 GMT 10
Epic.....I enjoyed your comments and the to and from between you and Cster..... and Tute..... and Cster.....and ALL the others!
Keep it up. People like me learn/learnt SO MUCH from this Thread & ALL the posts posted..... It is valuable, interesting, very deeply informative and very useful in so many DAILY & future duties/occasions/situations and the frequent/casual deep dissertations!!++ LOOKS GREAT and F A N T A S T I C!!
Forge
PS. From the version of the Bible that I am reading/studying, it seems, that most of the Jews, the Sunni Muslim and parts of the Talmuds were ALL abundantly anointed and become very oily, greasy and slippery. Is IT true???
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Islam.
Dec 11, 2017 9:26:33 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 11, 2017 9:26:33 GMT 10
LOL.  |
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Islam.
Dec 11, 2017 14:48:29 GMT 10
Post by cster on Dec 11, 2017 14:48:29 GMT 10
Ah you'll need the Torah to read whilst you do a tourah de vista of the slippery slopes that lead one to being anointed in oil and grease in or on the Pampa's of your locale.
With the Torah you can become legal advisor and Banker of memories. Tis a lovely little book to run a country with or ruin one also. With such knowledge you'll never dine wrongly again.
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Islam.
Dec 12, 2017 0:07:38 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 12, 2017 0:07:38 GMT 10
 You'll never dine alone?
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Islam.
Dec 12, 2017 4:42:32 GMT 10
Post by forge on Dec 12, 2017 4:42:32 GMT 10
Cster.....I enjoyed your comments and the to and from between you and Cster..... And Epic..... and Cster.....and ALL the others!
Keep it up. People like me learn/learnt SO MUCH from this Thread & ALL the posts posted..... It is valuable, interesting, very deeply informative and very useful in so many DAILY & future duties/occasions/situations and the frequent/casual deep dissertations!!++ LOOKS GREAT and F A N T A S T I C!!
Forge
Pss. No need to do ++a tourah de vista of the slippery slopes that lead one to being anointed in oil and grease in or on the Pampa's of your locale.++ The Forum is ,by far, a familiar, friendly & joyous environment. There are plenty of friendly, greasy and mutual "ointments" . The production & dispersion of vintage perfumes is very efficent. I LOVE IT / THEM!! Is there a register of ointed?
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Islam.
Dec 12, 2017 4:51:57 GMT 10
Post by forge on Dec 12, 2017 4:51:57 GMT 10
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Islam.
Dec 12, 2017 6:52:14 GMT 10
Post by cster on Dec 12, 2017 6:52:14 GMT 10
Last appointment for an anointed one went to Sediba who became Admin.
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Post by epictetus on Dec 12, 2017 13:12:00 GMT 10
Daniel Pipes on the Jerusalem decision
mailchi.mp/292354c3b9af/trumps-recognition-of-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-what-does-it-mean?e=2144d39423Daniel Pipes is another voice in the powerful Jewish lobby in the US, though as an individual and open-faced about his loyalties I don't know how much influence he has. In the universities he's denounced as a "fascist", "islamophobe", purveyor of "hate speech", etc. All rubbish, but it keeps the kids and some of the adults on campus happy. In fact, he is well informed, reasonably balanced, and measured. I find much of what he writes helpful, even if it seems incomplete at times (not telling the full story). Still, he is an advocate as well as an analyst, and that has to be kept in mind. I don't accept all his arguments. His promotion of the Israeli line on Iran is just a bit too predictable, I think, and maybe his optimism over the recent Saudi reforms is linked to a hoped-for moral justification for the morally highly dubious entente cordiale between the monstrous Wahhabi kleptocracy and the multicultural liberal democracy that is Israel. mailchi.mp/292354c3b9af/trumps-recognition-of-jerusalem-as-israels-capital-what-does-it-mean?e=2144d39423
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Post by epictetus on Dec 13, 2017 19:19:08 GMT 10
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Islam.
Dec 13, 2017 19:37:59 GMT 10
Post by cster on Dec 13, 2017 19:37:59 GMT 10
Comedy, a global thing. One would hope so.
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Islam.
Dec 15, 2017 6:06:48 GMT 10
Post by forge on Dec 15, 2017 6:06:48 GMT 10
Halmthuraih el pizzarahr al Epic!! #
Forge
PSS. # Great subject and great posts, Epic
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Post by epictetus on Dec 15, 2017 12:23:52 GMT 10
Halmthuraih el pizzarahr al Epic!! # ?? |
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Post by cster on Dec 15, 2017 14:21:34 GMT 10
Could be a legendary pizza joint? With Epic portions.
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Post by forge on Dec 16, 2017 5:39:19 GMT 10
Cster, YOU clever little/medium Dick...or is it...Luigi? I am heading (or tailing?) to Thirroul Grand Caffe' & Suprema Pizzeria Palace in one hour. Be there by 08:27:09 and there will be a larger slice of pizza for you, free from financial...incumbencies = FREE of charge!!
Forge
PSS. Nothing, unfortunately, for Epic!! Due to respect that HE commands, as a Great Mule, Forge will desists from making ANY comment on the Mule Epic and His grossly obese APPEARANCES . Is He already OVERloaded by the greasy fat of too many pizzas/knowledge? Or...may be...perhaps...his knowledge has been forced to MIGRATE & CONCENTRATE from the HEAD to the fat of the His enormous belly? Certainly the Great Mule Epic is FULL of SOME & LOTS of OTHER Things!! Next week I will have the use of a 3 tons truck with a crane. Forge will be able to offer a Lift & transportation to Epic...strapped on an Al Kabusatah throne... bolted on the tray of the truck!!
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Post by cster on Dec 16, 2017 16:29:25 GMT 10
Bull Forge Bull
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Post by cster on Dec 16, 2017 16:30:09 GMT 10
Everytime you think Mule, think Bull.
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Post by forge on Dec 17, 2017 4:20:07 GMT 10
Thanks, Cster! Up to NOW, I can distinguish a MULE from a BULL or an sitting elephant/one legged rooster!!
Forge
PSS. The full title of a popular Pampas vaqueros song is: Bulls Forge! Forge forges Bulls, OLE'!!!!!
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Post by epictetus on Dec 18, 2017 20:47:54 GMT 10
Mule? Mule? Don't you have elephant-headed men on the Pampas, Forge?   |
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Post by epictetus on Dec 18, 2017 20:55:33 GMT 10
I have just re-read the Meccan chapters (surahs) of the Qur'an, but this time in chronological order, the order in which they are believed to have been received and transmitted by Muhammad.
In the book form of the Qur'an the surahs are ordered roughly in length. I don't know why, even though I've read various speculative answers on the net. Hence, Surah 2 has 286 verses, many quite long, whereas Surah 114, the last of them, has only six short verses. The first surah to be revealed is Surah 96. Go figure!
This time I read from my phone. I was surprised at how much easier it seemed to be to read from the phone. It was certainly less tiresome (the Qur'an in translation is tiresome reading) than reading from a book or e-book, I think because of the much narrower presentation of text on the phone's screen. It was easier to take in larger chunks at a time, and scrolling down seemed to be more helpful than turning a page.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has said that, if only the Meccan chapters of the Qur'an had been retained Islam would be a much more peaceful, private and tolerant religion than it is. However, I think if that had been the case there would be no Islam today, as the Meccan surahs don't have enough to offer succeeding generations from the Prophet's time. There would be no Sharia, for example, and there is nothing in the Meccan chapters on which to build a significant spirituality for the ages. Islam and its prophet would be a footnote to history, or perhaps a minor Arabic offshoot of the Judaic tradition.
Of the 114 chapters of the Qur'an 86 were revealed before the migration to Yathrib (Medina). The 28 that were revealed in Medina comprise those which form the basis for Sharia.
The most significant event in the life of the Prophet and early Islam was not perhaps the visitation of Gabriel to Muhammad in the Cave of Hira, but the invitation by the elders of Yathrib/Medina to Muhammad to go to that town to reconcile the tribes to each other and to govern them and the Jews of the oasis. Muslims acknowledge the significance of this even by starting their calendar from AD622 (AH1) the year of the Hijra (the migration). They did not choose AD610, the year in which Muhammad received his commission from God via Gabriel.
The 86 Meccan chapters, hence the bulk of the Quran, present Muhammad as a Warner, and names him as such (hence the capital letter), and the chapters constitute a collection of highly repetitive sermons (they could be reduced to a half a dozen without any loss of content) together with the stories that illustrate the points Muhammad was trying to get across. And these stories are repeated over and over again. They are, adapted from the Jewish Bible with variations, the stories of
The Creation of the heavens and Earth
Adam and Eve and the expulsion
Noah
Abraham
Lot and Sodom
Moses, Pharaoh and the Exodus
Jonah
David
Solomon
The Queen of Sheba
Zachariah
Mary
Jesus
From Arab tradition the stories of:
Adh and Hud
Thammud and Salih
The Tubbas (Abbysinian-Yemeni kings)
The Battle of the Elephant (said to have occurred outside Mecca in the early 6th century)
Dhul-Qarnayn (perhaps a reference to Alexander the Great)
From other traditions:
The seven sleepers of Ephesus
Zachariah and the annunciation of John
Mary as consecrated woman
Jesus as Prophet
The annunciation to Mary
The birth of Jesus (under a palm tree)
The presentation of the infant Jesus
I may have forgotten some, but these are most of the stories, and they are repeated, almost word for word, in innumerable verses in many of the 86 Meccan chapters.
In summary, the Meccan surahs perform the following functions: They
- warn the Meccans of God's Judgement
- describe to them the horrors of Gehenna/Hell/the Fire
- affirm the prophetic status and role of Muhammad
- alert the Meccans to the punishment they will receive if they do not believe what Muhammad is telling them
- warn the Meccans of the horrific punishments they will undergo if they "ascribe partners to God"
- provide examples of communities and individuals that have been punsihed for their disbelief
- give reasons why monotheism makes more sense than polytheism
- promise the Meccans that they will be well rewarded if they worship Allah alone, obey the Prophet, honour their parents, give alms generously, look after orphans and widows, act honestly in their commercial dealings, do good to others, recognise the essential equality of human beings regardless of their social status, and encourage others to recognise and worship Allah alone.
All in all, though rather thin porridge, most of this is unobjectionable as a religious manifesto for its times. Even the gruesome horrors of Hell seem to be of limited duration. In at least a couple of surahs it seems clear that Hell is more like Purgatory - long-lasting but not eternal. I think there are other Surahs in the Medinan series that suggest eternal punishment, but Islamic scholars are divided on the question.
With a bit of cherry-picking there might be enough material in these 86 chapters for a conscientious Imam to teach his people the basic virtues of submission to God and the Prophet's teaching, charity, kindness, loyalty, good example, respect for others, honesty, and so on, but not enough, I would think, for the kind of dynamism that the early Islamic community displayed in its conquest of Arabia, the Levant, Persia, Asia Minor, Central Asia, North Africa and Iberia. That dynamism came from Muhammad's leadership in Medina and the formative detail in the Medinan surahs. When I've finished reading these surahs I'll tell you what I think.
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Post by cster on Dec 19, 2017 5:46:31 GMT 10
Good read Epic, Interesting thing in this is the way they will say these belong in the Qur'an again. So perhaps they were taken out to make it more militant? Which suited the times. But by design is now a crux to bear for the world.
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Post by forge on Dec 19, 2017 6:23:24 GMT 10
Sorry, Epic!! I misplaced (lost?) my Senior Forums reading glasses!! THAT is not the image of a pampas vaquero!! It is (seems?) the image of a pregnant obese female, endowed/enriched by 2 legs,4 hands and the long nose of a Middle Northern Asian "lady" that is caring for a small rat or a young elephant with a misplaced long nose attached where there should be a..tail!! WHERE are MY glasses!?!?!?
Forge
PSS. Is the obese elephant holding a cup full of Coles frozen chips? A plate full of Mongolian POPtheCORN? BLAST!!! I want my Senior Forums reading glasses...N O W... or immediately!!
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Post by forge on Dec 19, 2017 6:39:45 GMT 10
Thanks, Epic!! Forge will be away until...when he will return!!
++ When I've finished reading these surahs I'll tell you what I think.++
Forge CAN NOT WAIT to read what YOU think...do it as soon as possible.
PSS. Your posts on Islam and related religious subjects are very well prepared, researched, clear and competent!! Are you a part-time Mullah/Mule/Elephant Painter/North Eastern Mongolian preacher/Vietnamese auto electrician or...a...Trainee Argentinian Vaquero!?!??!?
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Islam.
Dec 19, 2017 14:22:05 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 19, 2017 14:22:05 GMT 10
PSS. Is the obese elephant holding a cup full of Coles frozen chips? A plate full of Mongolian POPtheCORN? BLAST!!! I want my Senior Forums reading glasses...N O W... or immediately!! Looks more like chicken nuggets to me. Or possibly Thai sweets. |
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Islam.
Dec 19, 2017 14:24:14 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 19, 2017 14:24:14 GMT 10
Thanks, Epic!! Forge will be away until...when he will return!! ++ When I've finished reading these surahs I'll tell you what I think.++ Forge CAN NOT WAIT to read what YOU think...do it as soon as possible. PSS. Your posts on Islam and related religious subjects are very well prepared, researched, clear and competent!! Are you a part-time Mullah/Mule/Elephant Painter/North Eastern Mongolian preacher/Vietnamese auto electrician or...a...Trainee Argentinian Vaquero!?!??!?  Just a weirdo that takes an interest in these things. Enjoy your "awayness". |
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Islam.
Dec 19, 2017 14:31:21 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 19, 2017 14:31:21 GMT 10
Good read Epic, Interesting thing in this is the way they will say these belong in the Qur'an again. So perhaps they were taken out to make it more militant? Which suited the times. But by design is now a crux to bear for the world. The Meccan verses weren't taken out, Cster. They still make up 86 of the 114 chapters in the Qur'an, but a lot of them are quite short. The militants pay more attention to the Medinan verses, the ones that came later, after the emigration to Medina. In fact, although the Qur'an is the foundation text for all Muslims, they refer extensively to the Hadiths, the collected sayings and actions of the Prophet as reported by his companions. What may be unclear in the Qur'an or mentioned only briefly is often expanded on in the Hadiths. |
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Islam.
Dec 19, 2017 14:40:29 GMT 10
Post by epictetus on Dec 19, 2017 14:40:29 GMT 10
Thanks, Epic!! Forge will be away until...when he will return!! ++ When I've finished reading these surahs I'll tell you what I think.++ Forge CAN NOT WAIT to read what YOU think...do it as soon as possible. PSS. Your posts on Islam and related religious subjects are very well prepared, researched, clear and competent!! Are you a part-time Mullah/Mule/Elephant Painter/North Eastern Mongolian preacher/Vietnamese auto electrician or...a...Trainee Argentinian Vaquero!?!??!? Just a weirdo that takes an interest in these things. Enjoy your "awayness". For a serious answer to your question, Forge, I began studying Islam more deeply three or four years ago when people started to comment a lot more about Islam and Muslims. I'd had very decent colleagues and friends when I worked in Thailand who were Muslim and I wanted to be able to speak truthfully about Islam while still respecting those people. Later, I wanted to know how it was that Islam could retain the loyalty of people who are intelligent and well-read. I'm still investigating that; I have some partial answers, but not a complete one. Of course, many Muslims have only a cultural and ethical loyalty rather than an ideological commitment. However, they can be very sensitive if they feel Islam is under attack. |
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You'll never dine alone?
Just a weirdo that takes an interest in these things. 
at least something to watch for the day of drizzle.