Islam.

[BlueSky]

Jan 3, 2018 22:34:57 GMT 10 epictetus said:

Thanks guys.

BlueSky, I agree with your view that Islam hasn't much of value to offer Australia, but unfortunately most Muslims disagree. I would alert you to my suggestion that there are more than a few young Muslims who no longer believe in the religion but are in the closet because they don't want to upset their families or they are afraid of extremists who may do them harm.

Although Islamic teaching may have little of value for most of us, Muslims include lots of very decent people, and they may well have something to offer as exemplars of family closeness and loyalty, self-discipline and clean living, and an alternative to the very conformist centre-left mainstream thinking that passes for intellectual discourse in our country. In my web-based complaint, as an enrolled student at Charles Sturt University, at the Vice-chancellor's intervention in the gay marriage plebiscite, the only one who backed me up (and very eloquently) was a Muslim. Whether we were "right" or "wrong", we were the only ones to bring in a different point of view.

Sami Shah, the comedian, has written a very good book about the conflicting strands in the Islamic communities in Australia, especially questions of loyalty to the nation, the status of women, attempts to reform Islam and reinterpret its teachings, attitudes to fundamentalists and radicals, freedom of speech, perceptions of "Islamophobia", and Islamic education. Shah, a Pakistani Shi'ite by origin, is an open ex-Muslim, as is his psychologist wife Ishma Alvi, who wrote a chapter on women and Islam in the book which she ends by saying "Islam ... does not like women. And since I'm a woman, I don't like it back".


The Islamic Republic of Australia, by Sami Shah. (ABC Books)

Epic, thanks again for the sharing your understanding into these matters. I'll be sure to read the book. 

I don't dispute any of that. I had a fair bit to do with Fr Dave Smith (Sydney Anglican Priest based in Sydney) and was consequently exposed, a little bit, to Islam way back in 2006. Dave's position was that it gives them a way to live, a purpose and direction. While I'm certainly no expert on Islam, my understanding of it and those who practise it has expanded. I'm pretty certain that many Muslims wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the Quran and a phone book. That applies to Christians aswell, with many who are biblically illiterate and can't tell you what they believe, or why they believe it; and it's for that reason that they cannot defend it. None of that is new.

The bits that I'm concerned about are not to do not with the Muslims who take up residence in Lakemba, it's the ones that make it to Canberra that have me worried. You can't influence anyone or anything on the street. It's done in the halls of parliament. You get enough of them in there with the wrong motivations, add in some time, and in the context of a culture that wouldn't know its aR$e from its elbow, and change could be effected for the worse. Maybe I'm entirely wrong, I hope I am.

[madametarot]

Welcome BlueSky and a happy new year to you.

Epic is our (this forum's) undisputed religion specialist (he is well read and lived in diverse religious communities) and he has no reform agenda.

I am an atheist who hates all religions pretty much equally, and I do have an agenda.

My agenda is to have my rights to not believe in invisible Gods, and to speak out against religious based injustices acknowledged.

To be quite honest, religious belief regimes have not earned the right to be respected by anyone anywhere. At best their leaders are bullies and at worst they are criminals.

So as far as not recognising a religious fantasy prop, as distinct from a phone book, if we saw one, then the more who can't the better it is for everyone.

[epictetus]

Hi Bluesky

We've been lucky so far. The two Muslim members of the Australian parliament are quite impressive.

Ed Husic is a Bosnian-Australian. Most Bosnians have been Muslim since the late 15th century following the Ottoman conquest. He was brought up in western Sydney and represents a western Sydney electorate. He describes himself as "a Muslim who does not involve himself with the activities which are part of the faith".

Anne Aly was born in Egypt and graduated from the American University of Cairo. She received her doctorate from Edith Cowan University in Perth. She is a secular Muslim (i.e. does not follow the religious beliefs and practices).

I think it could be said that these people are "politicians who are Muslim" rather than "Muslim politicians".

[epictetus]

Jan 4, 2018 15:55:06 GMT 10 madametarot said:

To be quite honest, religious belief regimes have not earned the right to be respected by anyone anywhere. At best their leaders are bullies and at worst they are criminals.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation, Col.

I don't think the Dalai Lama acts as a bully. 

The head of the Digambara sect of Jainism does not wear clothes (the Digambaris are "sky-clad"). Bit hard to be a bully when you're in the buff.



PS. The guy with the long hair was the President of India 2002 - 2007

[madametarot]

Jan 4, 2018 17:06:53 GMT 10 epictetus said:

Jan 4, 2018 15:55:06 GMT 10 madametarot said:

To be quite honest, religious belief regimes have not earned the right to be respected by anyone anywhere. At best their leaders are bullies and at worst they are criminals.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation, Col.

I don't think the Dalai Lama acts as a bully. 

The head of the Digambara sect of Jainism does not wear clothes (the Digambaris are "sky-clad"). Bit hard to be a bully when you're in the buff.



PS. The guy with the long hair was the President of India 2002 - 2007

A bit sweeping but I think I read somewhere that the D L Regime was not as tolerant as they made out, I can't remember the details, someone  might be able to help me out.  My point was that religion has been used to control the masses, even to the point of everlasting retribution.  (fire and brimstone and eternal damnation) .  If that is not bullying then nothing is.

[tute]

Hmmm… I wasn’t going to come here ….but I’m hissed off at the lack of any alternative responses forthcoming. Though finally.... and as per usual one finds all the answers within Cols sweeping age weary, still vacant, ill perceived negative narratives on religion.

Epic, whilst your ‘take’ on the Muslim condition (Australia included) is admirable, one should still consider the following.

According to the UN (July 2015) the world’s population will have grown by 2.4 billion by 2050 of which half will come out of Africa.
And ‘come out’ a lot of them will, seeking refuge in the West, creating that new and exciting ‘Mogadishu on the Yarra’.
Anyone who finds that prospect promising is definitely a perverse kock-eyed optimist.

Thanks to our lay about useless politicians; immigration is currently over a ¼ of a million per year. And as if a new local Mohammed blessed Mogadishu coming to a town near you isn’t enough, we have Christianity, the foundation of our civilisation, falling away. Self-loathing leftists are running the schools, the universities and most of the media. Our Judiciary is now also being produced from the same blend, with school children being presented with untoward sexual material as part of their “education”.

Politicians, (apart from Trump and a few others around Europe) have a fetish for putting their citizens second to whatever is the international cause du jour (e.g., global warming or accommodating the never-ending hordes of refugees). Unfortunately the list goes on. And there are colleagues within, that are bending over… albeit backwards (I would assume) to give some credo to the perverted rationale behind SSM

I am finding it increasingly difficult and depressing to watch/listen to the childish repeats from the certificate three qualified journalists passing them selves off as presenting worthy opinion, yet relaying no more than a preselected range of biased lefty generated nonsense, that has no worthy substantiated truth behind the report. Particularly the continued Trump assassinations. 

Rest assured ‘Blue Sky’ Lakemba will be as much a concern for the future of OZ as is those Koran carriers that finally make it into Canberra. Though using your assessment as a guide they could not differ from the rest of those ‘so initiated fellow travellers’ at not being able to recognise an arhse from an elbow.

But then again… maybe they arh ah are qualified, because on reflection there appears to be more and more of the third team on board these days

But phuck the truth anyway, look at our u-beaut next to useless concrete bollards, with matching wind mills

Churchill said....
“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

[madametarot]

mmm Tute quoting Churchill mmmm They got rid of Churchill after the war ended and found his bunker chockers with luxuries. While he talked that the plebs should do it tough.

Also, religion has even less merit in Oz this time around (me commenting) and do not forget the poms ruled the waves with slavery commerce so they are not great role models.

According to the census we Oz are not religious dependant anymore.

[epictetus]

Madametarot (Col) said: ..... I think I read somewhere that the D L Regime was not as tolerant as they made out, I can't remember the details, someone might be able to help me out. My point was that religion has been used to control the masses, even to the point of everlasting retribution. (fire and brimstone and eternal damnation) . If that is not bullying then nothing is.

................................................................................................................................................................................

Yes, Col. The rule of the monks in Tibet was oppressive and sometimes quite brutal. I don't think the DL can be blamed for this. He was too young - only 14 when he escaped to India. I'm not sure if he has acknowledged the oppressiveness of his theocratic predecessors. I can't find anything on the net (after a quick search).

Chinese administration of Tibet (1720 - 1912) was not especially benign, but Alexandre David-Neel, who spoke Tibetan and travelled to Lhasa on three occasions (the last, when foreigners were forbidden to travel there, disguised as a beggar), spoke well of the Chinese administration as harsh but fair.

The Dalai Lama is caught in the middle between (1) those Tibetans (and Chinese) who believe the PRC has brought modernity and a higher standard of living to Tibet, and (2) those Tibetans who demand total independence and a sovereign state. The DL argues for Tibet to remain a part of China but to have greater freedom as an Autonomous Region to express its culture and religion. I would see this as a rejection by him of the old theocratic model.

[red750]

I must say I haven't read this thread so this may have been covered, but the following video was shown on another of my forums, and I thought you might be interested. It's in Arabic, so you will have to read the subtitles.

[epictetus]

Tute said: Epic, whilst your ‘take’ on the Muslim condition (Australia included) is admirable, one should still consider the following.

According to the UN (July 2015) the world’s population will have grown by 2.4 billion by 2050 of which half will come out of Africa.
And ‘come out’ a lot of them will, seeking refuge in the West, creating that new and exciting ‘Mogadishu on the Yarra’.
Anyone who finds that prospect promising is definitely a perverse kock-eyed optimist.

...................................................................................................................................................

Quite right, Tute. The pressure of population growth in Africa especially, and in chunks of the Muslim world, combined with the too-often inability of Muslims to govern themselves effectively, is leading to massive problems of population movement. Combine this with the cultural differences and a religion that is resentful that its God-given superiority is not recognised by the nations to which Muslims (mostly young men) are emigrating and we have an explosive situation on our hands. Apart from the Rudd-era loss of control over illegal immigration, Australia has been able to manage immigration quite well. There may be too many allowed in, but that is a contested question. At least it's manageable - so far.

And yes, there is a significant proportion of the Muslim world who have no desire to adapt to Western ways, who encourage their followers to resist them or at least live separately from them and to raise their children to think the same. Those children, in countries like ours, are caught between loyalty to their families and heritages and the attractions of living in a secular and relatively free society.

And yes, again. A small portion of resentful and revanchist Muslims (mainly Sunnis) are keen to do harm to others they deem to be infidels, and these include non-Salafi Muslims (the vast majority of Muslims) and non-Muslims. The website TheReligionofPeace.com lists 2035 Islamic attacks in 2017. These took place in 61 countries, in which 15700 people were killed and 14302 injured. Most of these attacks were in Muslim countries, many in Africa. So, although the total numbers of violent jihadis may be a very small fraction of the total Muslim population, they have an impact way beyond their reach. 

I've read that we are more likely to be killed by a shark in Australia than a terrorist, but the presence of malevolent people in our own communities with the same rights we have is very unsettling, and the bollards and increased security are evidence of that. It's a bit like living in a country at war. In fact, I did live in a country at war for several years (Laos 1969-71, 1972-75) and was living in the capital when the victors marched in and "liberated" the city, but for all that time there was less evidence of security precautions and fear than there is in Australia now from Islamic extremism. (The communists did rocket the airport a couple of times, but that was several kilometres away. And the Lao communists were not aggressive towards civilians.)

My interest in Islam is mainly sociological. As a prophetic narrative and system of doctrines I don't think it has anything to offer, and I can't understand why some intelligent people actually believe the narrative and assent to the doctrines. I suppose it's just that they are familiar with them and accept them even though they're unbelievable, much as intelligent Roman Catholics used to believe in things like the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

Islam should be opposed because it is a fabricated and unworthy religion, and those who promulgate it should be exposed and ridiculed, but that won't happen because (a) we don't want to be intolerant, even of stupid religious proclamations, (b) we don't want to pick on one section of the population, (c) we fear reprisals, (d) we might think Islam as a religion is vicious in a number of ways, but we can also see some good fruit in some aspects of Muslim lifestyle, (e) although we think some/many Imams are a blot on the face of the earth, many are no different from a Christian pastor who's a bit gullible, but wants to provide wholesome guidance, consolation and counselling to his community, and (f) we might have negative thoughts and feelings about Islam and some Muslims, but we are quite friendly with Mr and Mrs Habib next door, Mr Abdullah who owns the kebab shop, and the sassy girl in the hijab who serves there.

It would be good if life were less complicated. However, our hapless political leaders and their advisers seem to think that denial is the best strategy, and that all the threats - the reasons for the bollards -  come from people with "mental health issues". It's an odd thing, though, that there's such a high incidence of "mental health issues" in our Muslim communities. Why so and why here? I lived in daily contact with Muslims in Thailand for 12 years and don't recollect any of them having "mental health issues" or behaving in any way that was odd at all. Of course, they may have harboured secret negative thoughts about all around them, but I never saw or heard any evidence of that.

[epictetus]

Thanks Peter (Red750)

And thank goodness for the sub-titles!

I gather the speaker is a media person in Egypt and disliked by many as he supports the military government.

His question "Why do they hate us?", a reversal of George W Bush's question after 9/11, was also touched on by the Egyptian President Al-Sisi to a gathering of Al-Azhar scholars (the cream of Egyptian Islamic scholars) on New Year's Day 2015.

raymondibrahim.com/2015/01/01/egypts-sisi-islamic-thinking-is-antagonizing-the-entire-world/

[epictetus]

A bit of Muslim comedy, in Doha of all places

www.ted.com/talks/maz_jobrani_a_saudi_an_indian_and_an_iranian_walk_into_a_qatari_bar

www.ted.com/talks/maz_jobrani_a_saudi_an_indian_and_an_iranian_walk_into_a_qatari_bar

[tute]

Just a quick comment to a post made herein that was purportedly from a Middle East TV Station....
This style of reporting would also be typical of the rubbish we are presented with on a daily basis from our own recognised multi media service.

As it is in Trumps case...so it is in ours, and false news can be extremely misleading. Trump is clever enough to circumnavigate it and the bulk of the American public know their media is a con game. Our media are of the same ilk... but sorrowfully the bulk of our public do not know it is a con and further, we do not have the required numbers of personnel in or outside of the media with dedication to truth, as do other nations of this world.

Julian Assange is one man of merit and of note at this juncture. Obama and the Clintons would have wrecked this planet so as to introduce their cockkkeyed philosophies. And have no fear there were no shortages of wealthy backers ... Eon Musk, George Soros, the idiot man of AGW fame... all in there with snouts protruding.

There is truth to the age old adage; believe a quarter of what you hear, half of what you read, and all of what you see.
An old saying applicable today more than ever, especially with social engineering being rampantly utilised at every mega pixel click of the proverbial social media clock. And unfortunately in almost all instances, a half witted MMS attempting to compete.

Sorting the wheat from the chaff is now the daily chore.... see Forge 

Back to the news item in question... for those interested ...

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) is a nonprofit press monitoring and analysis organization with headquarters in Washington, D.C. MEMRI publishes and distributes free English language translations of Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Pashto, and Turkish media reports.[1]

MEMRI states that its goal is to "bridge the language gap between the Middle East and the West."[2] It has been praised as an "invaluable" resource[3] and for helping to "shine a spotlight on hate speech wherever it appears".[4] Critics charge that despite portraying itself as neutral,[5] it aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light through the production and dissemination of incomplete translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[6]

[forge]

Poor Forge!! The bags are bigger and heavier!! Full, overflowing...mostly CHAFF and a tiny bit of wheat!! The producers of CHAFF are busy, adding to their posts:

3) Thanks BlueSky and Cster.
4) Anyway, thanks for the discussion and insights.
5) Thanks guys.

The wearing of the knee caps...continues! It could not be noticed. Crawlers, in company of crawlers will NOT notice that they are in company of crawlers!
Forge is NOT referring to the producers of THESE posts, posted on THIS Forum! He is referring to his friends of the Thirroul Chapter of the Pizza Coffee Shop Restricted Forum!!

[cster]

Hmmm and here I was thinking reflection was the cause for genuflection and the main reason for wearing knee caps out. best get down to Bunnings and buy some knee protectors.

[forge]

Thanx, Cster!! Great post to answer/comment on a predictable post. THANKS!!!

PSS. I go UP to Bunnings and YOU ( it seems) go DOWN to Bunnings? Lucky devil, do you live UP the mountain!?!?!

[BlueSky]

@ madametarot acuppateanyarn.proboards.com/post/25207/thread

Happy New Year to you as well. Your right to not believe is acknowledged, it is your choice and no one is going to try and change that.


@ Epic Anne Aly is on her third marriage and her son Adam Rida
 is media Advisor to Justine Keay MP, so technically that's three in parliament. Can't say I like the fact that her PAVE project is pulling the best part of $200,000 off of government grants with employee expenses for that organisation running into $122,000 per year. That's three employees on forty-grand a year!



@ tute acuppateanyarn.proboards.com/post/25213/thread

pretty much agree particularly with the 4th paragraph.

[epictetus]

Jan 8, 2018 8:09:56 GMT 10 BlueSky said:

@ Epic Anne Aly is on her third marriage and her son Adam Rida
 is media Advisor to Justine Keay MP, so technically that's three in parliament. Can't say I like the fact that her PAVE project is pulling the best part of $200,000 off of government grants with employee expenses for that organisation running into $122,000 per year. That's three employees on forty-grand a year!

www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/study-at-oxford-university-degree-guaranteed/news-story/d52c8807b0f8bfe3284eb23fa5874947

Well, she's an academic and an ALP politician, both keen to spend other people's money.

I try to be fair though.

[epictetus]

- A popular Arabic-language newspaper attacked Morocco's Christian activists for their faith and ended with the message: the "Koran requires the killing of apostates." — Morocco.

- Muhammad and the imam tracked down the boy and attacked him again. When a passerby saw the violence and contacted police, "instead of protecting the teenager from his attackers, [police] arrested and booked him into prison on blasphemy charges." Hours later, the imam and "a mob of more than 300 Muslim fundamentalists surrounded the prison, and called for a public lynching of Stephen." — Pakistan.

- Sweden decided to deport a female Iranian convert to Christianity. When the convert, Aideen Strandsson, pleaded that in Iran she could face the death penalty as an apostate, Swedish officials told her, "it's not our problem if you decided to become a Christian, and it's your problem." Meanwhile, Sweden continues accepting Muslim refugees.

- In the name of "fighting terrorism," Bangladesh made changes to a law that forced approximately 200 Christian organizations to shut down.

Full article at www.gatestoneinstitute.org/11731/muslim-persecution-of-christians-august

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I don't believe everything I read in the Gatestone Institute newsletter, but they have certainly accumulated a lot of evidence over the years that some Islamic states have really ramped up their persecution of Christians.

It wasn't always the case. There's a fair amount of evidence that in the early days there was a lot of cooperation between Christian communities and their new Arab overlords. The latter depended on Christian expertise to run their civil services, and there was little or no demand for Christians to subscribe to Qur'anic law. They and the Jews were deemed to have their own acceptable laws as "people of the book". However, as conservative Islam has become more ossified over the centuries, Islamic states have become less tolerant and flexible, an evolution that is continues in our time.

I was surprised, however, at the report of Sweden's threat to deport the young woman, Aideen Strandsson, to Iran, even though, as a Christian and an asylum seeker, she would be in serious jeopardy from Iran's security services. Sweden is a nominally Christian country and a standard bearer for human rights and social equality.

If one reads Jihad Watch and the Gatestone newsletter one gathers that the Swedes are having considerable difficulty absorbing the Muslim immigrants they welcomed in large numbers, but are reluctant to admit any mistakes other than to prevent more from coming and to try and deport large numbers of them, with little success. In the face of Muslim crime rates, especially attacks on Swedish women, the government is trying to crack down on recent applications while providing generous assistance and concessions to those who have been granted asylum.

But why they would try to deport a Christian convert to Iran seems very strange to me. They appear to have taken offence at the conversion, so I imagine they regard it as insincere, playing the system. We, of course, can't know whether her baptism was sincere or not, but if not, she would not be the first refugee to change their religion either to seek a benefit or, in the case of people I know, as an act of gratitude to the Christian church that helped them settle in the country. But they are Buddhists, who do not regard adding another religion to their name as improper. Their concept of religion does not include dogmatic belief, impervious boundaries and exclusivism. For a Muslim to convert to Christianity, however, is to take a very significant step and, although women are penalised more leniently for apostasy than men, they are still punished unless they disavow their conversion within a given time. And given that the Iranian authorities regard any expression of dissent as punishable by jail, torture, forced confession and the like, the Swedish government's intention to deport the lady is incomprehensible.

I'd like to know what more there is to the case, but can't find anything on the net to add to what is in the link.

And Strandsson is not an Iranian name. It looks like she has married a Swede, something that would also be looked upon with suspicion by Immigration. It's a common device to improve one's case, but hasn't worked well for years unless the relationship has been long-standing. On the net I couldn't find any reference to a husband or partner. It's also possible she changed her name; Iranian names can be long and hard to pronounce correctly. Once again, there's no information about this.

Anyway, the Hungarian government has agreed to give refuge to this young woman if the Swedish government carries its threat through. That is comforting, though hardly appropriate.

Unless there's something we're just not being told, Sweden is acting irresponsibly and callously in this case. I don't think the Swedish authorities are by nature stupid or callous. I wonder though if the heavy strain that has been taken on by civil servants due to the excessive number of Muslim asylum seekers they have welcomed has impeded their ability to make rational and consistent decisions. In short, the size of the problem they've created for themselves has led them inexorably to "lose the plot".

[cster]

Just incomprehensible, The more they infiltrate the more that country shows the strain of their presence. This isn't the recipe for coffee coloured people all over the world, it's a recipe for pizza sauce globally. One hopes the world soon throws out their record by the new seekers, and seeks salvation. Yep bet it don't happen in the next 10 years, but when it do?
I like to teach the world to sing in neatly divided octaves, la da da daaa


Thinking about it I believe I was supposed to quote the Blue Mink Song Melting Pot. Sheesh.

[BlueSky]

Sweden is a nominally Christian country and a standard bearer for human rights and social equality.



Nominally would seem to be the word. Sweden is fairly hostile towards Christianity. They have laws against homeschooling, "hate speech" that includes church sermons, social engineering that encourages avoiding the use of personal pronouns, and recently a Swedish church set a gender rule that God should not be called 'He' because of gender bias.

[epictetus]

Yes, very nominal and very PC. Lost the plot in more ways than one, I'd say.

Still, who am I to say? Young people see the world differently from me, and it's their world now.

It's the forest (and old men's forums) for me. Oh, and the Master's program at Charles Sturt University in Contemporary Islamic Studies that I'm starting next month. If I proceed at the leisurely rate I'm starting at I'll be finished when I'm 80. I'll keep at it if it satisfies; drop it if it doesn't. Not cheap either.

[epictetus]

Jan 16, 2018 5:48:15 GMT 10 cster said:

The more they infiltrate the more that country shows the strain of their presence. 

Not infiltration, Cster. More like the storming of the doors at a Boxing Day Sale.

Sweden has tried to stanch the flow. I think the numbers are down now.

The EU doesn't know what it's doing. Asylum seekers are supposed to apply for refugee status in the first country they land in, but the EU allowed mass movement across countries and into those with the best welfare benefits, e.g. Sweden.

[BlueSky]

Jan 16, 2018 19:45:07 GMT 10 epictetus said:

Yes, very nominal and very PC. Lost the plot in more ways than one, I'd say.

Still, who am I to say? Young people see the world differently from me, and it's their world now.

It's the forest (and old men's forums) for me. Oh, and the Master's program at Charles Sturt University in Contemporary Islamic Studies that I'm starting next month. If I proceed at the leisurely rate I'm starting at I'll be finished when I'm 80. I'll keep at it if it satisfies; drop it if it doesn't. Not cheap either.

CSU is a good place from what I've heard. I completed a year at UNE 2016 online (Media and Communication), but didn't continue on for lack of interest; finding something that is of interest as well as useful is difficult.

Islamic studies! What will you do with it?

[madametarot]

Jan 17, 2018 10:52:08 GMT 10 BlueSky said:

Jan 16, 2018 19:45:07 GMT 10 epictetus said:

Yes, very nominal and very PC. Lost the plot in more ways than one, I'd say.

Still, who am I to say? Young people see the world differently from me, and it's their world now.

It's the forest (and old men's forums) for me. Oh, and the Master's program at Charles Sturt University in Contemporary Islamic Studies that I'm starting next month. If I proceed at the leisurely rate I'm starting at I'll be finished when I'm 80. I'll keep at it if it satisfies; drop it if it doesn't. Not cheap either.

CSU is a good place from what I've heard. I completed a year at UNE 2016 online (Media and Communication), but didn't continue on for lack of interest; finding something that is of interest as well as useful is difficult.

Islamic studies! What will you do with it?

I did Freelance Journalism L1 L2 and L3 30 years ago. I did not work as a Journo but it was very worthwhile.  Amazingly I actually received marks of 100% for some assignments and when I queried them I was told they could go straight to the printer and I  had missed my vocation.   Despite that a punter in here told me I had mo idea how to write.

It was an interesting outcome, but not unexpected, because most people cannot change their writing style to suit their different readships and they think everyone should write using the same half dozen rules that they do. 

[cster]

Bluesky said " What will you do with it?" I would say Bluesky that Epic will use it to temper our "they're all enemies" mindset by filling us in on what and how they operate. There was a saying "hold your friends close and your enemies closer". Which must have some bearing on what most people think is occurring when people appear to not decry what Islam is doing, at least an element within Islam. And before Epics counsel I'd have said "only Islam" being willing to tar them all with the one brush. So the benefits abound.

[madametarot]

Jan 18, 2018 8:33:29 GMT 10 cster said:

Bluesky said " What will you do with it?" I would say Bluesky that Epic will use it to temper our "they're all enemies" mindset by filling us in on what and how they operate. There was a saying "hold your friends close and your enemies closer". Which must have some bearing on what most people think is occurring when people appear to not decry what Islam is doing, at least an element within Islam. And before Epics counsel I'd have said "only Islam" being willing to tar them all with the one brush. So the benefits abound.

My opinion never waivers on religion - no religion deserves respect. 

The foundation of all religions is deceit, followed by power and mind control and when that does not work history has recorded violence. Religion has done it at all levels from preschool to adulthood, and from families to communities and to countries and attempts at world domination.

Religion has earned my contempt.

[epictetus]

Jan 17, 2018 10:52:08 GMT 10 BlueSky said:

Jan 16, 2018 19:45:07 GMT 10 epictetus said:

Yes, very nominal and very PC. Lost the plot in more ways than one, I'd say.

Still, who am I to say? Young people see the world differently from me, and it's their world now.

It's the forest (and old men's forums) for me. Oh, and the Master's program at Charles Sturt University in Contemporary Islamic Studies that I'm starting next month. If I proceed at the leisurely rate I'm starting at I'll be finished when I'm 80. I'll keep at it if it satisfies; drop it if it doesn't. Not cheap either.

CSU is a good place from what I've heard. I completed a year at UNE 2016 online (Media and Communication), but didn't continue on for lack of interest; finding something that is of interest as well as useful is difficult.

Islamic studies! What will you do with it?

[epictetus]

What will I do with it? Probably much as I'm doing now, pursuing my interest until I feel I've gone far enough, and posting my thoughts and observations on the small forums I take part in. As I said, if I don't find the course satisfying I won't continue with it.

I'm also looking for answers to my question of why decent, intelligent and well-read people (some of whom are among my acquaintances) stick to a faith that to me lacks credibility and is excessively legalistic and negative. I am aware of the positive side of it, but those positives are by no means exclusive to Islam.

Frithjof Schuon wrote at length about exoteric and esoteric religion. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frithjof_Schuon

By exoteric he meant religion for the masses - the kind of religion one sees in rituals and hears from pulpits.

By esoteric he meant the less public, more metaphorical, probably unorthodox teachings and beliefs that have grown alongside the more widespread and better known exoteric models. They have historically been restricted to small audiences who have been inducted into their communities by sages who may or may not be approved by the official spokesmen for the exoteric institutions.

Schuon had in mind the Sufis (he was inducted into a Sufi Order himself) who have been a much admired part of the Islamic tradition for a thousand years, but are hated by fundamentalists like Islamic State, Al Qaida and the Saudi mullahs.

I have started reading a recently published book that discusses the esoteric strands in Islam, and am beginning to realise that they have been there and prominent in non-Arab Islamic cultures for a very long time, over a thousand years, and have been an essential part of any educated Muslim's cultural repertoire from Asia Minor to Bengal. These strands celebrated visual art, poetry, conviviality through wine-drinking, romantic love and sexuality (hetero- or homo-), despite the apparent prohibitions on some of these things in the Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet (Ahadith/Sunna). They interpreted those commandments in ways that seemed to marry orthodoxy and heterodoxy in a way that became mainstream among the intelligentsia and socio-political elites of the non-Arab, Turkic and Persianite world without compromising their status as Muslims. I am finding this fascinating, but have a way to go yet. It's not very easy reading.

I also have a kind of bucket list of false ideas and teachings that have to be exposed and cleared away. I don't believe I'll find my way to positive Truth in this life, but at least I can clear away some of the detritus, the obstacles to clear knowledge, as I progress along the path. Islam is certainly seeking people's commitment to its creed. It therefore needs to be submitted to the same unrestricted investigation as Christianity has been in the light of up to date historical and scientific knowledge. In the Muslim world, Islamic leaders have rejected this and persecuted honest researchers, but Muslim academics in the West are doing the work and saying the things that need to be said. The book I referred to above is a case in point.

[forge]

Epic: ++Islamic studies! What will you do with it?++
Epic: ++What will I do with it? Probably much as I'm doing now

Yes, Epic! It is VERY important to maintain & increase OUR interest in OUR interests and remind others that WE remind OURSELVES in what WE are interested IN...In writing! If WE are not interested in OUR interests...WHO should will/be!?!? To MY posteriors the arduous task to answer the question that I have asked to...MYSELF!!

Epic wrote:++ I also have a kind of bucket list of false ideas++ You may not believe IT, but our friend Forge has 39 overflowing Buckets Lists!! Later this morning, when I go to Thirroul, I will offer 6 Buckets Lists to the Local Members of the Senior Coffee & Pizza United Union of the Illawarra Philosophical Society. THEY have assured Forge that they SAFELY store ALL the Time Pipes & Tubes in THEIR Seaworthy Time Skip. I am not so sure...WHY and WHERE is the content of the TIME SKIP emptied? It is emptied religiously ( Sorry, MadTar!!) EVERY Monday morning at 05:47:03…..but WHERE!?!?!?!?!